Faithful Finances: Managing Money with a Mission my interview with Whitney Owens from the Wise Practice Podcast

EP 146 - Faithful Finances: Managing Money with a Mission my interview with Whitney Owens from the Wise Practice Podcast

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Introduction to the Interview

I had an absolutely great interview with a lady name, Whitney Owens. She has a podcast called wise practice podcast, and she generally. Talks to people who have. Practices in counseling, but she brought me on her show to talk about some accounting and finance, and we blended all that together with some great talk about faith.

And I thought I wanted to share this with you today, so I hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to the Ask Ralph Podcast, where listening to an experienced financial professional with over 30 years of experience can help you make sense of confusing questions, current headlines, and industry trends about taxes, small business, financial decision making, investment strategies, and even the art of proper budgeting.

Ask Ralph makes the complex simple by sharing his real world knowledge from a Christian perspective with all things financial. Now here's your host, Ralph Estep, Jr.

Meet Ralph Estep, Jr.

Hello friends and welcome back to the wise practice podcast. On today's episode, I have Ralph [00:01:00] Estep. He is a highly accomplished professional with a diverse background in finance, accounting, technology, and entrepreneurship. As the principal at Saggio Management Group Incorporated. He has demonstrated exceptional leadership and expertise in various roles throughout his career.

 Ralph, thanks for coming on the show today.

Oh, you're welcome. I appreciate you having me on the show.

Yeah.

Ralph's Background and Faith

Well, why don't, before we get going, you share a little bit about yourself, your background, your family, what you like to do for fun, just so people can get to know you better.

Absolutely. So I always say that I'm a accountant. I'm an author. I'm a farmer. I raise black Angus cows here on a farm here in Delaware. I am married it will be 24 years this September. I've got two children, one of which is 23 in May and my other is 26. My oldest son is in the U. S. Coast Guard serving in Galveston.

Wow.

So, and I grew up in accounting. my Dad has an accounting practice, so I tell people I've been doing accounting since I was about six.

That's awesome. I [00:02:00] actually always thought I'd enjoy being an accountant. I like, think numbers are lots of fun.

we consider ourselves engineers with a personality. Oh,

I love that. That's a great, boy, I'm going to tell my accountant that one. That was good. That's great. That's great. All right. And then you have a faith based background with the work you do.

Correct?

Absolutely. I'm a member of Baptist church here in Middletown, Delaware. But I've always grown up, I had my salvation when I was 13 and it's the character of who I am. And one of the things I talk about in my book and I talk about in my podcast is that you don't have to check your Christianity at the door when you go into the workforce.

A lot of people think you've got to do that, but you don't. It's who you are. It's what makes you up. It's what your character is all about. And that's kind of what I've tried to do in my life. people know me when they come into my accounting office, I have an office here on the farm. I give away Bibles in the lobby, they, they may not ask about Christianity, but they're sure going to hear about it.

And I don't beat them over the head with it. It's not my intention, but I consider this my mission [00:03:00] field. And if it's my mission field and guess what, I'm going to try to be, that person for them that plants those seeds.

I love how you said it like that. I was even thinking about that yesterday when I was at church thinking like the work I do and helping faith based therapists and helping clients, that is my church.

Right. That's where I do ministry.

Absolutely. And I think more people need to realize that your mission field is where you are at, it's where it's wherever you are. It's whatever your profession is, that can be your mission field. And you've got to look for opportunities to sow those seeds.

Most definitely. So you've been an accountant pretty much your whole life, huh?

Absolutely. Like I said, I grew up in this. I graduated from the university of Delaware. Then I went on to get my master's degree. I started my own practice. In 2005. So it's coming up on 20 years being in my own practice. Also worked as the executive vice president at a credit union.

I ran a law firm. I've done a whole bunch of different stuff, worked in a software company, [00:04:00] but now I've been in private practice now for almost 20 years and I really enjoy what I do. I enjoy helping people. So if I can help one person, then I've checked my box for today.

Yeah. Hey, that's a very good way to think about it.

Christian Perspective on Finances

So today we're going to talk about what does it mean to manage your money or your finances from a Christian perspective, which I think is super important for Christian practice owners. So what are the first things that you have to say about that?

Well, I wrote a book about this called Mastering Your Finances.

And in that book I talk about, first thing you need to do, whether you're a Christian or a non Christian is you need to know where your money's going. It's all about assessment. It's all about knowing where your money's going. But as a Christian, I think you've got a little bit extra to do. And that is, you have a stewardship.

what you've been given here is not yours. You've been entrusted with it. So you have to steward those resources. And God's looking at you and saying, how are you using those resources, Ralph? So I think that's a real key important thing. So if you're a Christian person, I think you've got like [00:05:00] an extra layer, for lack of a better way of saying it.

I think there's more expected from you. There's a stewardship mentality that you have to, and you have to be transparent. one of the things that's interesting in my practice is people proclaim to be a Christian. They want to come in and tell me how they're going to cheat on their taxes.

how they're going to end up paying the least amount of taxes. Well, that's great. I'll help you pay the least amount of taxes, but I'm not going to let you go to tax evasion. I'm not going to let you go down a road that, it just defies your Christian faith. There's so many people that get stuck on that.

It's so easy to get corrupted when it comes to money. So as a Christian, I think it's really important to know that, you have to have transparency, but the key is that stewardship.

Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, looking at what are the things Jesus talked about the most on almost money, because it is so corrupt.

Right. And then, your comment about taxes, like it have been any more clear, give to Caesar what Caesars.

Well, that's a fact, right? And, give them to God, what is God's, that's the second step to that. [00:06:00]

Yeah, definitely. And the

discouraging part of me is I have people that come in, and let's just say they're not business people, just ordinary tax people.

They come in, Oh, Ralph, I gave a lot to charity this year. I said, okay, what does that look like? Well, I gave 200. Well, that's fantastic. You made $200,000, I don't think you're quite hitting the tithing barrier there, are you? So that's another part of that. if to whom much is given, much is expected, and if you want to be a Christian and honor your finances, then you've got to honor tithing, support your church.

If you don't have a local church, find one. If you can't find one, then find charitable organizations. That will help you reach. I just recorded my podcast. It'll play next Sunday. It talks about that. It's called giving it to God. He gives it to you. He lets you use it. So you've got an opportunity.

You've got an obligation to use it for his kingdom.

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Stewardship and Financial Responsibility

Can you talk some more about stewardship? What do you mean when you use that word?

What I mean by that is you using your resources wisely, making wise [00:07:00] decisions, not squandering your resources. The thing I see every day, and I see this every day in my practice, I do a ton of financial counseling.

People have no clue where their money goes. And they get to the end of the month and they're like, oh, we can't afford to pay this. We're running up our credit cards. I just recorded an episode today on credit card debt. Do you realize that almost 50 percent of the US population is bringing credit card debt over from the previous month?

That's not good stewardship because interest rates continue to increase. The average interest rate on the credit card is over 20 percent now. And if you are not stewarding your resources, then how can you know, if you're not doing the right things for yourself, how are you ever going to bless somebody else?

Thanks. So stewardship is all about making wise financial decisions. Well, how do you do that? Well, first of all, you got to define where your money's going You'd be shocked how many people come in to me and i'll say to them look for the next 30 days I want you to write down every dollar and where it's going.

They look at me like i'm like i'm crazy And then they'll come in 30 [00:08:00] days later and I say, Ralph, that was a really cool exercise. We had no clue how much we were spending on Starbucks, and I'm not picking on Starbucks, or how much we were spending at Dunkin Donuts is a big one here, or how much we were spending on eating out or all those things.

I had one client come in, husband and wife were both paying for a Netflix subscription and neither one of them realized the other one was paying for it. Well, they were paying for it twice, but it's that old adage of what gets measured gets done. So that's the first step. And then. Part of that stewardship is having a budget, saying, okay, here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to pay God first. If you have a Christ centered budget, what that means is that you pay Christ first because he's given it all to you. It's not yours. You have to steward those resources. there's a, it talks about in the Bible, I don't remember the exact passage of it, but you know, he gave this one this much and gave this one this much.

And one of the people said, well, yeah, I didn't do anything with it. I didn't invest it in crazy. Wait a minute. You have a job. Your job is to grow that your job is to steward that. And maybe I've not done a good job of defining it, but I feel [00:09:00] Stewardship is making sure that you're doing the best with what you've been given.

Yeah. That's the parable of talents. I think that you're referring to.

Absolutely. That's exactly right.

Yeah. I mean, something I think about, and I'd love to kind of get your thoughts on this.

Balancing Business and Faith

Yeah, I run a group practice. I have 14 therapists that work for me and a couple of admin staff. And so I definitely think about tithing, and I use, I actually tithe that on my personal money, when I pay myself and then I taught that my husband's actually a pastor.

So, Oh, excellent. That's like a whole nother topic of like, that's a whole nother discussion. My husband works.

I got several clients that are pastors. So I get that. That's a whole nother level of discussion.

Yeah. Yeah. But I feel like it's important. So we give to that. but then as a business owner, I try to think about how can I give.

to people out of my, what God has given me and sometimes giving doesn't look like here's, a hundred dollars and I'm going to give it to this. Sometimes it's offering a sliding scale to our clients or being involved in a fundraising event or [00:10:00] some of it is we give our time, we give our energy, all those kinds of things.

So it can look a little different as business owners, how we do that.

Absolutely. And one of the things I mentioned in my podcast, like I said, recorded yesterday was that giving doesn't mean money necessarily, it means giving your time, giving service, offering. And this is why I do the podcast for an example, I said this to people, this is my mission field.

I don't ask for money. I don't ask you to send me anything, I don't ask you to buy anything. I say, look, if I can help you, if I can help one person, you can do the same thing in your practice. Let's say you have somebody come into your practice and they just can't afford to pay you. Well, as a business person, I'm going to tell you what, that's not a good person to take.

Right. But as a Christian, you know, maybe you say, look, I'm going to grab so many people a year and say, look, this is going to be, my pro bono for lack of a better term, or I'm going to charge them half price. And the thing is, we want our businesses to prosper, but if you're [00:11:00] cheating God, why is he going to let you prosper?

And if somebody comes through the door and says, look, I really need help and you turn them away because they don't have the money to pay you, is the message that you're sending. Because my truth, I truly believe that when you help others, you're blessed 10 times over. I can see it in my own practice. I've had people come in.

Like for tax work as an example, and they'll say to me Ralph, I'm really struggling right now. I'm a single mom I really can't afford to pay you this fee. I could pay you half. I could pay you half later I said no Here's what I want you to do pay me half Take that other half and take your kids out to do something do an activity or something like that.

Well, guess what happens? The next day I get three more clients. You tell me God's not involved in that. Absolutely. He is. And he's going to reward that. It might not be immediate and it might not be what you expect, but I think he's rewarded in that. So I hope that answers your question.

No, I think that's, I think that's great.

[00:12:00] And, Yeah.

Challenges and Rewards of Faith-Based Practices

I definitely think there's something to be said with us also just sensing the spirit, like how is God asking us, especially as therapists, we have all these clients knocking on our doors, needing a lot of help. We can't possibly help all of them. So being really wise about, Hey, I helped some of them at a discount or a sliding scale.

And then I have others that I refer out to another place that maybe does have better funding, like nonprofits in the area, they can take on a little bit more sometimes than what we can do. And just being able to like really come together as a community. to help meet the needs of these clients.

Yeah. And the thing is, you've got to be successful in your business to support your family. So you can't just say, well, I'm going to be, I'm going to do everything for free because that just doesn't make any sense either. That's why I said, if you're a good steward of your resources, if you're being effective, if you're being wise in your decisions, then that will afford you opportunities to do more things.

And like you said, maybe you refer them to a local church that might have a pastor that does counseling. I know at a church we used to go to, they had a pastoring, excuse me, yeah, a counseling [00:13:00] pastor. And that's what he did. He met with people who were having relationship issues or any of those things and it was free.

So maybe you have to look to the community and I think that's a great thing to look at. Absolutely. But you can't put yourself in the poor house to do it.

Yeah, and I think it's a hard line there, right? It's a hard line. And as therapists, we tend to give too much just to be honest, like that's why we went into this field.

And so I'm always having to remind people, Hey, like the reason that you're not able to pay your debt off is because you're giving too much at your job. And so it's, it is definitely that fine line to walk. And I think it all goes back to our hearts, like where are our hearts and our giving and where our hearts about our money.

Yeah. And it's all about your treasure, right? Where your heart is, your treasure is, right?

Yeah. And that's so

true. But you have to take care of you first.

Mm hmm. you've

got to do that and you got to pray about it. You got to say, listen, Lord, what is it you'll have me to do? And if you shut up long enough.

He'll speak to you, but that's the problem. See, we like to talk. we like [00:14:00] to talk about we're going to do this and we're going to do that. And God's laughs at us because he's if you'd listen for a second, I'm going to give you some good, I pray about wisdom to me.

The Importance of Listening and Planning

That's the key.

God, give me the wisdom. What does this look like? But so many people don't shut up long enough. To listen.

So is there some kind of proverb about man makes his plans and the Lord laughs at him or something like that? Yeah, if

it's not a proverb, it definitely needs to be, right? I'm not trying to add to the Bible, but it's the truth though, isn't it?

We make our plans and God laughs because he's got a predestined plan for us. If we're living our purpose, guess what? We're living our purpose, then God's got a plan for you. He's going to put people in front of you that need you, and He's going to put people in front of you, you need them. And I can imagine, I've never done counseling, although I'll tell you, in my practice, I feel like a counselor someday.

I say to my clients sometimes, let me take my accounting hat off and put my counseling hat on. Because it all intersects, doesn't it?

Financial Issues in Marriage

Because if you have financial problems, your marriage can be a wreck. [00:15:00] How many times do we see that's the I truly believe that's the biggest cause of most marital problems is finance Yeah, we'll put people through all kinds of premarital counseling to talk about this and talk about that But do we pull each other's credit reports?

Do we pull each other's budgets and say, look, where do you spend your money? Because that's going to make or break a marriage. I see it every day. And if you don't invest in that, if you don't take the time to look at that. So I would say, as a Christian counselor, maybe that's one of the things you need to broach with your clients is look, maybe you need to look at your finances.

Maybe that's an area that's causing stress

Business Consulting and Tax Planning

Oh, it's definitely a big part of the business consulting. I do. it's number one, you know Let's look at that money and what's happening here and it's all the things you said They have no idea where they're putting it or they're putting it into multiple things.

They don't need they're not saving for taxes, which as a business owner is huge, People don't prepare for that especially as you grow your group practice your income level is increasing. And so your [00:16:00] tax payoff is high.

Yeah. And have they created the entity that works best to save them taxes?

Because so many people don't want to invest in people like me. they don't want to set aside money and go meet with somebody like me. I meet with people all over the world because zoom has opened up these doors and I can meet with people and say, look, here's how it's structured. Now there's a better way to do this.

There's a better tax structure. I started the beginning by saying, I don't want to do tax evasion. But I will sure beat the doors of tax avoidance down because that's legal. And there are things I can do to help these practice people who have set up these businesses, and maybe they're set up as a sole proprietorship and they need to be an S corp or they're set up as a sole proprietorship.

They need to be an LLC. Well, why do you say that Ralph? Because. There are ways to save on taxes that are appropriate and legal, but people don't take the time to invest to figure out what those are. And then they go to see their tax guide at the end of the year. And to be blunt, my clients who come in at the end of the year, there's not much I can do for them.

I can put the things on the paper, but that's not what the value [00:17:00] is. The value is in that tax planning, that tax plan that goes on throughout the year. I'll say to my clients in October, November, let's look at your year to date financials. Where do things stand? Well, it looks like you're going to owe some money.

So maybe it's time to make some investments. Maybe it's time to buy some things. Maybe it's time to set up a retirement plan.

Retirement Planning for Therapists and Pastors

How many people have retirement plans? It's not a lot of therapists That's right And we live in a world where guess what? Define benefit plans like your mom and dad had working at chrysler or working at One of these plants they work for 30 years and then when they retired they got a check every month Guess what folks that's not happening anymore Your retirement is what you put into it.

And if you think you're going to live on social security You're going to be in trouble. So imagine people in your field as well. they got to start thinking about retirement plans. do you set up a solo 401k plan? Do you set up a SEP plan? There's all kinds of things out there. You just have to do it.

And that's part of stewardship as well. You have to realize you're not going to be able to work every day of your life. Now, maybe you will, I don't know. But at some point you'd hope you'd be able to retire. I see that with [00:18:00] pastors all the time to be honest, a lot of pastors just don't plan for retirement.

And that's a sad thing. And then, they looked at the, I've dealt with a couple of pastors in their eighties and I say to them, why are you still doing this? Well, Ralph, I didn't really set aside for retirement and that's just sad. It's sad. But no one has pulled them aside and said, Hey, and the problem is a lot of them opt out of social security, which even makes it more complicated.

That's like part of it. I think. That's a good part of it. I seem to remember, yeah.

And if they've not put aside your resources they've not done the traditional 401k thing or the SEP plan. But anyway, I didn't mean to go down a rabbit hole there, but I'm just, that's all part of the stewardship part.

you got to steward your research. You got to plan for the next time. You can't just plan for today. You don't live for today. That's good as a Christian. I don't want to live in fear, but I also have to plan.

Definitely. Definitely.

Dealing with Graduate School Debt

Well, Ralph, a lot of practice owners that are probably listening are in debt because graduate school is expensive for therapists and a lot of therapists don't make a lot of [00:19:00] income until they really grow, and can really raise their rates because we can only charge so much and especially therapists that are on insurance panels have a solo practice.

It's hard, to, and they do that to help these clients. I'm curious if you have any thoughts about what would you say to someone who's bootstrapping working hard and has all this debt from graduate school?

It's hard. it's the truth. I look at what graduate school costs now, and I say well, how do you expect people to ever recover that?

Yeah. It's just true. And the problem is, and I don't want to pick, I want to throw darts at a dart board, but here's the problem. Colleges have figured it out. Well, they can get loans for it, so we'll just hike tuition up. We'll hike tuition up. We'll hike tuition up. And at some point, what are you paying for?

I wish I had a magic, trick that I could say, okay, do this, this, and this. But you know what? The problem is you're just going to have to figure it out. You have to pay those bills back. You take time, you do it, you build your practice. I get it. I've got some physician clients that owe five, six, seven hundred thousand dollars in student loans.

 it's like a triple [00:20:00] mortgage payment for some people. And they'll say to me, Ralph, I can't get ahead doing this. I said, I get it. I get it. I don't know what the solution is. as a country, we can't just forgive all the student debt. That's not going to work. so I, I wish I had a good answer.

The only thing I can say is, again, pray about it. put it into your budget, figure out how can we start paying. The good thing about student loans is they're usually low interest rate, which is a positive. That's one good thing. But yeah, it's a problem. I wish I had a magic, way to here we go.

It's gone, but I don't have that.

Definitely.

Growing Your Practice and Financial Planning

Well, and what about practice owners who are growing? So maybe thinking about purchasing office space, because that's a huge financial investment for your business. Do you have any recommendations or thoughts about that?

Yeah, I think you really need to have a budget.

You need to plan what that looks like and the thing I see about clients that go into new business, especially if they're building a new building or they're fitting out tenant space, a lot of people don't realize when you go rent space, you get a vanilla shell they call it. You get four walls and a concrete floor.

And you've got to think about, okay, what am I, what else am I going to need? And people don't [00:21:00] have any concept of the budget for that. And I've seen a lot of businesses fail because of that. Do you know concept of what does furniture cost? What does utilities cost? what are the other costs I'm going to have?

So I think you've got to look at, you've got to enlist the support. I call it a team, a dream team, right? You've got to have a good attorney, somebody that's going to negotiate contracts with you. You've got to have a good insurance agent. Someone that's going to make sure your butt is covered, right?

Because there's a lot of that kind of crazy stuff that goes on. A good accountant and probably a good coach. someone who's been down that road before, because guess what? Coaches have made mistakes. That's why they coach now, because they know how to avoid those mistakes. And if they can help you through that process, so you don't have to make the same mistakes they've made, then you're going to be that much better.

 You got to look at it wide open. you got to realize. When you go into your own space is going to cost you, but you've got a plan for that. And that's the whole thing. Budget plan, have a contingency. What does that look like? Most people go into it like, wow, I've grown.

I'm grown. there's no room for me. I want to bring on [00:22:00] another counselor. There's not enough waiting room space. Yeah. But you know what? Sometimes you got to be uncomfortable for a while before you take that next step. Right. I mean, seriously, that's the truth. how many times do you have to work extra hours?

How many times do you have to do more? and you're right. at some extent, at some point, if you're taking insurance, like you're restricting how much you can charge, how much you're going to collect. I don't know. I've seen a lot of people going to concierge practices with this kind of stuff.

I think that's a very good plan to go to. I think you don't burn yourself out as much. I personally use a concierge physician. I think it's great.but I think you have to be ready for that growth. And the thing is, if you add employees and you know what I'm talking about, you add in payroll costs, you're adding, payroll taxes, you're adding workers comp, you're adding all these things.

You've got to be aware of what those things are before you jump into them and pro forma those out. And that's where somebody like myself can help you with that and say, okay, Ralph, here's what I'm fixing to do.what do I need to do to make this work?

Well, you're preaching my language. these are the mistakes I see people starting their group practice.

They pay their people too much, not thinking about all [00:23:00] the stuff you just said. And then they also get more office space than they need. and, I, at one point had six therapists in two offices. It was crazy house, but it worked until I could get more space, and it was allowed to save more money for that.

And that's the thing you have to go into it with the idea, like you may need to be uncomfortable. It's okay. that old adage of you, if you build it, they will come. Well, sometimes you got to wait, you, and that's the thing about prayer too. Like maybe you got to wait, maybe it's God not ready for you to make that turn yet.

And like you said, you had six therapists working out of two offices. Guess what? You figured it out there. Didn't you?

I sure did. And I kept growing.

Yeah. And that's the key because you can outgrow yourself. I had a client a few years ago and I said to him, I said, you're going to outgrow yourself. And he goes, what does that mean?

I said, you've got so much money going out on the street. Your cashflow is going to be an issue here before long. And sure enough, six months later, he was out of business because he grew too fast and he wasn't ready for what that looked like. Yeah. And especially in the insurance market, think about that.

How much time does it take to get paid by the insurance company? Well you're [00:24:00] frontin all those wages at the front end for your therapist, right? And you're waitin on that payment from the insurance company. Well you better have some cash on hand to meet that payroll, to meet those utilities, to meet that rental payment.

maybe you're fortunate enough you bought property, which I think is a great thing to do. Make sure you find a good realtor. Make sure you're in the right location, but that's my take on that. You can grow too big. My grandfather used to use this term, you get too big for your britches and it's easy to get that way because we see, we have these grandiose dreams about, Oh, I got to have this great space and I've got to have this huge atrium and boy, this is going to be fancy.

Yes, it will. It'll be beautiful. But are you ready for it? Can you afford it?

Yeah.

Ralph's Resources and Contact Information

Well, this has been super helpful. Ralph, do you want to share a little bit about your book and how people can get in touch with you?

Sure. Absolutely. The best way to get in touch with me is I have a daily podcast called the Ask Ralph podcast and that's mastering your finances with a Christian perspective.

It's real easy to find. It's askralphpodcast.com . I also have two books, one of which is the first book I wrote [00:25:00] last year. Is mastering your finances from a christian perspective and the second one this is my real christian deep dive and that's called The gospel of entrepreneurship how to walk with jesus in your business And that book will change your life and it'll change your business when you realize That you don't have to check your christianity to do it You can be who you are, and God will reward that, and your employees will reward it, and your customers will reward it.

So I encourage you to get those books. You can get them on Amazon. You go to my website, like I said, askralphpodcast.com . I also encourage you to subscribe to our podcast. I do it daily. It's about 15 minutes a day. I give you real information that you can put to work. I give you action steps. I don't talk about all kinds of high and mighty garbage.

For example, Today's podcast or release is about PMI insurance. If you have a mortgage, you're probably paying PMI insurance unless you paid a lot down. Well, how much does that cost me? So I say, Hey, ask Ralph, he'll tell you what it costs you and are there ways to get around that? So I give you practical advice.

So I hope that answers your question, but that's the best [00:26:00] way to get in touch with me. If you want to schedule a one on one meeting with me, you can go to that askralphpodcast.com/store you can schedule a consultation with me. I do it through zoom. If you'd like. I meet with people all over the world and I impact them.

I can help them, but they got to take the first step.

That's right. That's right. Well, we appreciate you taking the time to help us today and I know people will be following up with you. And so thank you so much.

I appreciate your time too. And God bless you.

You too.

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