How do we handle our finances effectively as a couple? Interview with Karen Hackman a couples financial expert.

[00:00:00] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Are you and your spouse on different pages when it comes to money? Do financial discussions often lead to arguments? Imagine a marriage where money talks don't end in tears or slam doors. Where you and your spouse are on a United front tackling your financial goals together. Sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? We'll stick around because, on today's episode, I might just change your relationship and your bank account for the better. Today, we're diving into how couples can effectively manage their finances together with insights from Karen Hackman. She's a couples financial expert. So you don't want to miss this show.

[00:00:42] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Now, before we jump in, if you missed yesterday's episode on “How do I work at cultivating Christian community,” make sure you go back and check it out. You can listen to that as well as all of our episodes at askralph.com. Yesterday, we talked about some powerful ways to deepen your financial connections. And again, you can find that at askralph.com.

[00:01:07] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Well now, let's start with a message from one of our listeners. Funny is this, but it's Karen.

[00:01:11] Ralph Estep, Jr.: We're going to have the interview from Karen here in a minute, but Karen wrote me this note. She said,

[00:01:15] Ralph Estep, Jr.: "Dear Ralph, my husband and I have been married for five years and we still can't seem to get on the same page financially. I'm a saver, he's a spender and every conversation about money turns into an argument. We talk about everything, and I feel like we have a really good communication skill but not when it comes to our finances. How can we find common ground and start working together on our finances?

[00:01:39] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Well, Karen, I am so glad you reached out. Your situation. I hate to say it, but it's more common than you might think.

[00:01:45] Ralph Estep, Jr.: And it's exactly what we're addressing on today's show.

[00:01:51] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Well, welcome to the show. I'm here to help you gain financial freedom. I want to help you grow in your faith and thank you so much for joining me on today's journey. Today, I'm going to bring you an interview I had with Karen Hackman and it's coming up in just a minute we really got into how to build your financials and how to do that as a couple. Well, one of the things we're going to do before we get to that interview, I'm going to encourage you to visit our website. That's at askralph.com wants you to join our community. And if you're finding value in the show, do me a huge favor. How about sharing it with somebody who might benefit from this information? And when you join our community, you're also going to get a free copy of my book. It's called mastering your finances. Now, this usually sells for $10 on Amazon, but it's yours.

[00:02:31] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Absolutely free. When you join our email list and remember before, we get into the interview. Our show is all about answering your questions. That's why we call it Ask Ralph. So send them over to me by email. That's ralph@askralph.com. Or you can visit our website again, that's askralph.com. You'll see a little microphone icon, click on that and tell me what's on your mind.

[00:02:56] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Now, before we get into the interview, let's ground ourselves in scripture, the book of Proverbs 24:3-4 says this: “By wisdom, a house is built, and through understanding,

[00:03:08] Ralph Estep, Jr.: it is established; through knowledge, its rooms are filled with rare and beautiful treasures.” Well, this verse reminds us that a strong foundation. I strong financial foundation in marriage is built on wisdom. It's built on understanding, and it's built on knowledge.

[00:03:30] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Hello, Karen, and welcome to the show.

[00:03:32] Karen Hackman: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:03:35] Ralph Estep, Jr.: So we're going to dive right into it and get right to the core of what we're going to talk about. And how do you help couples stop fighting and arguing about finances? That's really the key question today.

[00:03:45] Karen Hackman: Yeah, it is.

[00:03:46] Karen Hackman: And I learned from personal experience. My husband and I, it took us a few years to get on the same financial page. And we were arguing for many of those years. And I had to kind of, it kind of, the penny kind of dropped. And I kind of thought, right, we cannot go on like this. And so I had to take a step back.

[00:04:08] Karen Hackman: And think about, “this is obviously not working, what can I do?” So I encourage my clients to, that one person has to be the grown-up in the relationship, and you have to think, this isn't working, take a step back. Because I don't know about you, Ralph, but when you are in a negative kind of frame of mind, it's a downward spiral, and you have to step back

[00:04:31] Karen Hackman: and pick yourself up and go, “Right, this isn't working. Let's do this differently.” So that's when I decided to, instead of when my husband had a very negative and reluctant mindset when it came to talking about money. So I had to find him when he was in a good mood and then say to him, look, can we talk about this at the weekend?

[00:04:53] Karen Hackman: Because I couldn't spring things on him. Like, a classic example is, I am a morning person, and I'm awake with the birds, and he is a night owl, and I would, I would, I would be awake for a few hours, and I would check in the bank statement online, as you can do these days, and I'd wake him up with a cup of tea, and straight away I'd be talking to him about money, and that didn't go well.

[00:05:14] Karen Hackman: So I had to, as I say again, just take a step back, find something that worked so, so that he had that time mentally to prepare that we were going to talk about money. And I find with many of my clients, one person sometimes can be that overwhelmed or reluctant spouse, and so you have to really manage how you're going to approach talking about money.

[00:05:36] Ralph Estep, Jr.: And Karen, you said it took 18 years. So what do you have as tools to help people not wait 18 years to make this work? In fact, I was telling you before we started, I'm going to be recording an episode tomorrow on a newlywed tax checklist. And one of the things I say in there is that you really got to get yourself in the same financial mindset together.

[00:05:59] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Even before you get married, what are your thoughts on that?

[00:06:02] Karen Hackman: Yeah, I mean, well, I try to reach out to newlyweds or people that are newly engaged just so they can start off on that right footing, because even though we had a marriage mentor, we had marriage prep classes at our church, we had a financial advisor.

[00:06:17] Karen Hackman: Nobody said to us, are you sitting down? Are you creating a budget or a spending plan? Wherever you want to call it. Are you doing those things? Do you know how much debt each person has? You know, you have because it is normal now to have debt, unfortunately. And we need to be, we don't need to be ashamed anymore.

[00:06:33] Karen Hackman: We need to bring that out in the open. So I just say to couples, all the cards on the table, you know, let's be open and honest. Let's have an environment of a non-judgmental environment where we're calm and nobody's going to hit the roof and walk out and slam the doors because this isn't what you thought.

[00:06:50] Karen Hackman: Let's just be really calm. Yeah. and maybe have some nice drinks and maybe some nice food to go with it and let's just be really open and honest with one another and then you know where you're starting from, and you know you can make a plan. You can make some money goals which is really good fun and then you can kind of make a plan to go forward.

[00:07:09] Ralph Estep, Jr.: You know, one of the things I found in my practice over the last, I guess, 30 years I've been doing this is that generally, the woman in the relationship kind of takes over the financial range of the house. Has that been your experience as well? And is that a positive or a negative in your view?

[00:07:26] Karen Hackman: I think as long as you are talking to each other and the other one knows what the other one is doing.

[00:07:31] Karen Hackman: So I've got, I have a variety of experiences where in some couples, the husband is in charge, and he knows exactly what's happening but doesn't communicate that to the wife. And the wife goes out shopping and then comes back and the husband's really cross because She's overspent, but she didn't know how much to spend.

[00:07:53] Karen Hackman: So you can't really tell her off for that because there was no communication there. And in other couples that I've worked with, they've had separate bank accounts and it's kind of worked, but they don't really know what each. The other one's got or hasn't got you know, what if they're in debt or if they've got savings. So one couple I worked with had been married for over 13 years and hadn't really talked about money and it was just helping them to see if you work together. You could perhaps encourage each other. To be each other's cheerleaders support and challenge each other and you can create some of those fun money goals and help each other with those

[00:08:28] Ralph Estep, Jr.: It's funny you said that when my wife and I got together, and it'll be 24 years in September, one of the things I said to her was “You know, we need to talk about finances.” I mean you think about the couple's intimacy right in so many ways, but how is it so complicated?

[00:08:45] Ralph Estep, Jr.: To get intimate and talk about your financial situations, and what I’ve experienced with my clients is that sometimes people have some real dark hidden secrets. They don't want to talk about what you do to facilitate those discussions when you've got one party. That's, you know, very clammed up and you know doesn't want to talk about it, but you and I both know that not talking about it isn't going to resolve the issue

[00:09:07] Karen Hackman: Yeah, what I find is that if one spouse is on board, um, the other spouse might sit there, very negative, crossed, you know, cross arms, doesn't want to talk about it, be very quiet.

[00:09:17] Karen Hackman: Then after a few weeks, they kind of see the progress that the, the wife is making, and then they kind of come around, um, and they're more open to talking about things. In my experience, I find that It's because they've had like a negative upbringing with money, and I don't know about it in America, but in the UK it's very much we don't talk about money.

[00:09:40] Karen Hackman: You don't, don't talk to anybody about money. And so it's, it's saying it's okay. As I said earlier, it's okay to be in debt. It's okay not to know things because unless you know, you don't know. And if you go, and some people, uh, have that proactivity where they can go and find out things, but others don't know because, they don't know how, where to go and find help.

[00:10:00] Karen Hackman: But thankfully these days on the internet with people like you, Ralph, it's very easy to find out what we can be doing. So I just think give them, they have to know you, and we have to build up that trust together. And we have to create that calm, non-judgmental environment where they can feel free and they know that they won't be judged, and they won't be shouted at, and they won't be looked down upon because of maybe what their beliefs or the situation that they find themselves in.

[00:10:28] Ralph Estep, Jr.: I'm assuming one of the things that you push, and I talk about this on my show all the time is creating a budget How do you do that as a couple? You know think about that for a second my son and my daughter in law They just got married. I want to say about a year ago and my son is very much the financial guru, and you know, he handles the whole thing, but I don't know that they've ever sat down and put together a budget.

[00:10:50] Ralph Estep, Jr.: How do you work with couples to do that?

[00:10:52] Karen Hackman: Well, I find that the word budget puts a lot of people off, so I have called it an intentional spending plan, which seems to go down better. I think that the word budget has so many negative connotations, where people think they're going to be restricted, and they can't go out and spend any money, they can't go out and have any fun.

[00:11:09] Karen Hackman: So in my intentional spending plan, that I hope, Ralph, you'll be able to put a link in the show notes below for that.

[00:11:17] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Totally, I'll do that. And I love that term. I might just have to steal that from you.

[00:11:20] Karen Hackman: Do, because it works. Because people do think with a budget you can't spend any money. So it's deprivation.

[00:11:26] Ralph Estep, Jr.: That's all they hear is deprivation. And you can't do this, and you can't do that. But I mean, to me, a budget is a freedom plan.

[00:11:33] Karen Hackman: Yeah, for me, it's empowering. And, and we've really learned that. So we've learned that it takes about three months to get this spending plan kind of where you want it to be. So I encourage people just to keep going and not to give up.

[00:11:47] Karen Hackman: And it has, you know, your general incomes, your outgoings, your, your flexible, um, outgoings and your, Your fixed outgoings and then also in that budget line, you have some fun money and that and you see people go Oh, I could still have some fun with my budget and they can see where it's And when you create that spending plan, I know that you know this ralph that you can see The intentional spending plan that I created is very simple because I created it for my husband who was, as we've said, overwhelmed when it came to talking about money.

[00:12:24] Karen Hackman: So I didn't want something to overwhelm him even more. I wanted something that was super simple. There are no bells and whistles with this. The whole year is on one page, and you can see your debt and you can see your savings and if all goes well and you stick to this spending plan, you'll see the debt decrease and the, and the savings increase.

[00:12:45] Karen Hackman: And it's a bit, it's a bit like a game, Ralph. You kind of get excited when you see those numbers change and go in the right direction. And I call it gamifying your finances. And then together, um, and it's created on a Google doc, you meant, so. You can, you can both kind of play with the numbers and see where you're at, but I do encourage people to spend some time at least once a month.

[00:13:05] Karen Hackman: And for us, it's around payday and it's forward-thinking. A lot of people think that budgets are looking at the month that's gone by, but I believe that if you're looking at the month, you need to look at the month ahead and then make those plans. Um, and to be flexible as well, because sometimes as we know with this cost-of-living crisis, and sometimes things don't always go to plan and, and to know that this is not fixed in stone.

[00:13:28] Karen Hackman: it can be changed. And just to give people that flexibility and that knowledge to know that you're moving in the right direction. And sometimes it's three steps forward and two steps back, but as long as overall you're going in the right direction, that's a really good encouraging thing to see.

[00:13:43] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Karen, I got a zinger for you here.

[00:13:46] Ralph Estep, Jr.: How do you deal with those situations when there's a big difference in income between two parties? I know I see this all the time in my practice, and it does create some frustration sometimes. What have you found in your work and your practice and the things that you do to help bridge those gaps?

[00:14:03] Karen Hackman: Yeah, I just say to couples that you're a team now, you know, and it's really great if you can merge your finances and you should, you know, just move away from this, this is my money, this is her money, um, you're a team and merging your finances is for the best because I think if you continue to have that Mindset where well, this is my money and I only want to give 50 percent of it I just I do encourage couples just to think about that and think about their future and especially if they have children and one of the couples is going to stay home and look after the children that that's you know If you're a team then it's our money and it's not my money and his money anymore So just for the future, I really encourage, uh, my clients to have to merge their finances And then, and then they can all see it, and then there's nothing hidden, Ralph, you know?

[00:14:53] Karen Hackman: Then you can't have any secrets from each other. And I think for accountability, that's a really good thing.

[00:14:59] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Well, I agree with you and you alluded to something a few minutes ago on what we don't often consider is what people are bringing to the table, you know, what did they grow up with, you know, what was the dynamic around their home, you know, and that's tough because you might've come from a place where, you know, maybe your cable TV was getting shut off all the time and your electric was getting shut off all the time.

[00:15:19] Ralph Estep, Jr.: So you've, you've really circled the wagons, and you've got this position of, I am never going to be dependent on somebody else. I'm never going to let my guard down. How do you deal with that? Karen? Cause that's a tough thing.

[00:15:30] Karen Hackman: It is a tough thing. And to be open and honest about what your family situation has been will really give your spouse a really good understanding of maybe why you're so negative or why you're, you just got such a frugal mindset.

[00:15:43] Karen Hackman: I've lost my train of thought now. I've not completely lost my train of thought. I've remembered.

[00:15:51] Ralph Estep, Jr.: I do that all the time. Don't feel it.

[00:15:53] Karen Hackman: So I always say that where you've come from, you've come from two different places, and neither is right, and neither is wrong. But now you are a couple, you are a new couple, you're creating a new family, and you've got to create a new page for each other, you know, and you've got to create a new beginning and work with that.

[00:16:12] Karen Hackman: And just maybe leave those negative money connotations behind or celebrate the good things that you've learned and the good things that you've brought to the table. And then maybe go and do some research on financial planning and maybe, you know, read so many fantastic podcasts and books out there that there is no reason for you not to be aware of how you can improve your finances these days.

[00:16:35] Karen Hackman: But just remember where you've come from. It's going to be different from where your spouse has come from, but neither is right or wrong. And you just have to create a new page. Now,

[00:16:44] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Karen, let me give you a, what if. So husband, wife, just get married. What are the top things that they need to do financially right from the start to make this a successful union as it relates to finances?

[00:16:58] Karen Hackman: Yeah. I love that question. Now, what I would say is bring all, put all your cards on the table, talk about debts, it's, don't be ashamed. Let's, and let's see if we can get this debt gone and then create a budget together, create, and it has to be. Uh, you know, uh, we, A realistic, that's the word I was looking for, a realistic budget, you know, and things are going to go wrong.

[00:17:20] Karen Hackman: So just plan for those and be flexible. And then I would say, create some money goals, create some fun money goals. You know, yes, let's get debt-free. Let's build that emergency fund, but then let's. Let's go and have a nice vacation. Let's, you know, maybe take the kids to Disney, or let's do something that's really our wildest dreams.

[00:17:40] Karen Hackman: And when you work as a team, you can achieve anything. And just being each other's cheerleaders and knowing that this is what you are reaching for is really good fun. And if it looks like you're going on a vacation, you plan it together. You budget together, you get those savings together. There is nothing better than delayed gratification and going on that vacation, knowing that you worked as a team to make it happen.

[00:18:04] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Yeah. And one of the things I told you, my oldest son just got married last year. And he called me about two months ago and he said, daddy says, how do I know when it's the right time financially to start having children? And you know what I said to him, I said, “Son, that is a very good question.” I said, because to be very candid with you, I don't know that you're ever going to find that perfect opportunity.

[00:18:26] Ralph Estep, Jr.: I said, there are 12 different things that could go wrong. There are 12 different ways to look at this. You know, does your wife stay home and take care of the children? You know, what does that look like? Karen? What do you tell couples that are asking the same question? I'm sure you get that question.

[00:18:41] Karen Hackman: Yeah. And like you Ralph, I tend to say there's never going to be a good time. You just have to make sure that you're that you both have the same expectations Who's going to stay home and look after the child or are you going to put the child in the nursery? Or, you know, things that there are so many options out there right now.

[00:19:00] Karen Hackman: And having a child is super, super expensive. Um, and you just need to go in with open arms, and open eyes. And, if I were you, I would talk to some other couples that have just had children, and maybe at different stages. So you can get a realistic idea of what the costs are. But as I said earlier, there's never going to be a great time to have children.

[00:19:19] Karen Hackman: And if you are blessed with children, then enjoy it. And you will make it work. When we had our daughter, my husband was a youth worker. And I was a teacher, and we didn't have a lot of money, but God had just blessed us so much. We, first, when we had her, we didn't have to pay for anything apart from the cot.

[00:19:37] Karen Hackman: Everything was given to us, the pram, the clothes, everything. We were just super blessed. So, you know, don't ask me. Not to have children because you're worried about the money. You will find it working but don't expect, like some of our friends did, to create a nursery for 5,000. Because for me, this baby doesn't like what room it's in.

[00:19:56] Karen Hackman: As long as it's warm and it's safe and it's well fed, it's got a clean diaper, that's all it's going to worry about. So don't, you know, having a baby is like having a wedding these days and it seems to be a license to print money. Don't be ashamed. To ask for help and go to thrift stores because these babies grow so quickly You don't want to be spending a hundred dollars on a new outfit Then they're not going to fit in in the next three to six weeks

[00:20:21] Ralph Estep, Jr.: No, it's so true.

[00:20:22] Ralph Estep, Jr.: And I like what you said about that, you know, it really comes down to food clothing, and shelter And we can create all kinds of crazy stuff and we got to have this You know beautiful setup for the nursery and we got to do this and we do that I know with my youngest, you know I learned as like, you know I can go to target and get the same clothes for him That we can get at some of these specialty shops and guess what he wears it once If he wears it twice it's going to be stained up with something because this child found his way Into every mess that was possible, but I think what I hear you saying is you got to adapt your intentional spending plan over time.

[00:20:57] Ralph Estep, Jr.: So let's talk a little about that. How do you make those changes to that intentional spending plan? And what is the typical interval for when you need to make those changes?

[00:21:06] Karen Hackman: Yeah, well, let's say that you're going to have children, so maybe you're not going to be going out, uh, to fancy restaurants, or maybe you have those luxury holidays, you know, those five stars at the sandals in the Caribbean, you know, you can knock those on, knock those on their head.

[00:21:20] Karen Hackman: And then your money just kind of weaves its way, quite naturally, quite organically, into something else. Um, you know, when you've got friends visiting with young children, you may not take them to the local, um, I don't know, the wine tasting, you're going to then go to the zoo, um, you do, things are just going to go very naturally into your new phase of life, into your new chapter.

[00:21:42] Karen Hackman: So you won't be going to those five-star restaurants anymore, five-star hotels, you're going to be, um, spending money on going to the zoo instead, which is equally fun because you're in a new stage of your life.

[00:21:52] Ralph Estep, Jr.: And I think that's what you have to embrace. You have to embrace the change and embrace, you know, in the Bible, it talks about the seasons of our life.

[00:21:59] Ralph Estep, Jr.: So, tell me about your coaching program, you know, give me some specifics about what you do, what that looks like. How do people get involved with that?

[00:22:06] Karen Hackman: Yeah, well, my signature framework is, um, it's a five-week coaching program called “Get on the same financial page as your spouse.” And it's for couples who realize they haven't been talking about money and they want to change that.

[00:22:19] Karen Hackman: And they just don't know where to start. Um, so I've created this program that goes from talking about your money mindset to where you are now, and where you want to be. And at the end, we create that intentional spending plan. And it's great because we end up talking about things that they've never really discussed before.

[00:22:35] Karen Hackman: Like one recent couple were talking about university fees for their children. They were talking about writing wills and how important that is, um, powers of attorney, things like that. So it's just very relaxing. Um, and I'm not a financial planner, as you know, so I don't tell people what to do, but it's, I just ask those open-ended questions where, what do you see?

[00:22:56] Karen Hackman: How would you like to improve? Where can we go? And I'm a bit like a cheerleader, but a bossy big sister all at the same time. Just helping people in that calm non-judgmental environment where we can just be open and honest and talk about things that you wouldn't really talk about with, you know, even your best friends or your parents.

[00:23:14] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Karen, do you find yourself becoming the mediator at times?

[00:23:19] Karen Hackman: Thankfully, not, not recently I haven't, no, because they come to me and they know what it's all about and we have that, we have like a meeting on Zoom before where they sign up to the program and they both come in with both, with open, with open eyes to know what we're going to be doing.

[00:23:35] Karen Hackman: Sometimes there's one spouse keener than the other. But then when we get that, when that kind of that ball gets rolling and they can see what they could be doing with their money and seeing how they can be having some fun with it or supporting family or friends, and then they kind of both jump on the same page and that's great.

[00:23:51] Karen Hackman: And that's really exciting for me to see that change in relationships. And that's what I love doing what I do.

[00:23:56] Ralph Estep, Jr.: So what's been the most crazy or unusual thing that you've talked about during these coaching sessions?

[00:24:02] Karen Hackman: Oh, that's a good question. I don't know. I think for one couple I worked with, they were, wasn't really crazy.

[00:24:08] Karen Hackman: It was kind of open their eyes so they can see that they needed an emergency fund. So, and you know, a lot of people I talked to go to go, go, not a lot of people. I can't get my teeth in today. Can I, Ralph? A lot of people I talked to and when we talk about emergency funds, um, they're like, “Oh, that's a good idea.” because they haven't heard of that before.

[00:24:27] Karen Hackman: And so that's really important and I really just enjoy talking to people about how we can improve their finances and how they can prepare for the future.

[00:24:37] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Is that where your passion is, Karen? Is that what you see your mission field in life is to really come alongside people and help them?

[00:24:45] Ralph Estep, Jr.: What's so rewarding about that for you? What is, what is the reward for you?

[00:24:49] Karen Hackman: For me, because it took us such a long time to get on the same financial page in my marriage, and when my husband finally said, okay, let's do this, meaning let's get out of debt together, let's work as a team, the hope in me was just bubbling over, and I just thought to myself, I cannot be the only spouse.

[00:25:09] Karen Hackman: struggles to talk about money with their spouse. I cannot be the only person. And I listened to podcasts and I read books just to get like, an even little, a little tiny piece of advice on how I could work with my spouse. And, and so that's my passion. That's helping couples to get on the same financial page and work together because I know what a game-changer it can be for your marriage.

[00:25:30] Karen Hackman: And I just want that for everyone that I meet.

[00:25:33] Ralph Estep, Jr.: That's awesome. And you know, I do a Christian podcast. That's a big part of what I do. And I know you're a fellow Christian. So how do you bring your Christianity into what you do?

[00:25:41] Karen Hackman: Well, many of my clients are Christians as well. Not all of them, but many of them are.

[00:25:45] Karen Hackman: And we pray at the beginning of our meeting, which is lovely. And then we kind of bring some Bible verses in. And when we talk about tithing, how important that is, because that's in the word, um, and then, you know, other charitable giving if they want to, um, and so that's just really just open and honest, and our struggles too, we talk about our struggles openly, and because It's not always perfect, is it?

[00:26:07] Karen Hackman: Things go wrong and the washing machine or the boiler or the car may break down and these things happen and yes, it's frustrating, but it's okay because we're still alive and we've still got hope. We can be flexible and then keep, just keep moving on. But um, yeah, faith is a big part of my, my program and, and it's just great to see other people just, it's just great to share our faith with each other and to pray with each other as well.

[00:26:29] Ralph Estep, Jr.: You know the same way as I look at my show as my mission field, you know daily I look at is if I can help one person if I can help, you know, like in your case one couple, you know Get past that difficulty get past that now One of the things that people don't know about you is you're from the UK, but you don't actually live in the UK.

[00:26:47] Karen Hackman: No, that's right.

[00:26:48] Ralph Estep, Jr.: You're in Kenya. So you got to tell us about how did you land in Kenya of all places?

[00:26:53] Karen Hackman: Yeah. If you told me when my daughter was born, that when she was 18 months, we'd moved to Bermuda first, and then when she was five, we'd moved to Kenya, I would never have believed you. So, as I said earlier, my husband was a youth worker.

[00:27:06] Karen Hackman: He's now a full-time pastor. And. In 2009 the recession hit the UK and in UK churches when the recession hits or people are short of money they stop tithing and then the youth worker is always the first to go. So we knew that Wayne was, you know, it was going to be a tricky time for us so he started looking around for jobs and then he was offered a job in Bermuda and at first I was like, oh but we've got, you know, I had, I had a lovely teaching job here and I really wasn't that keen and then he showed me the YouTube's top 10 beaches in Bermuda and I said, okay, let's give it a go.

[00:27:46] Karen Hackman: And then five years later, um, the recession then hit Bermuda. So we knew that he was going to lose his job then. So again, he started looking around and he got offered a job in Kenya in a Christian international boarding school. And that's where we, that's where we moved to. And it was obvious God was just opening all those doors and firmly closing other doors for us.

[00:28:08] Karen Hackman: So, so that we've been there for eight years now. So we didn't ever expect when we first moved to Bermuda, we thought we'd be gone for three years. And that was about 14 years ago now. So God has obviously got plans for us there. And it's wonderful because I'm able to, through my coaching program, actually 10 percent of what I earn goes to a Children's Rehabilitation Center just down the road from us, just 10 minutes down the road.

[00:28:32] Karen Hackman: So I love supporting them as well. Um, I'm also, I can also help just your regular people down the road who are just struggling with their budgets because it is a, a difficult time for everybody in the world. I understand that. And in Kenya, unfortunately, the government is increasing taxes and introducing new taxes.

[00:28:52] Karen Hackman: So it's really hard for some people out there. So I just enjoy helping others as well.

[00:28:57] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Tell me about everyday life in Kenya. I've never been there, and I don't really know too many people that have been there. And many of my listeners may not even understand, you know, where Kenya is. So tell me about everyday life in Kenya and how that's different than what you had before you moved there.

[00:29:11] Karen Hackman: Yeah, so Kenya is in East Africa. All places have their poverty and affluent areas as well. Many people think about Africa, they think about children walking in bare feet to collect water. And yes, that still does happen. But for the majority, they do have shoes and have shopping malls.

[00:29:31] Karen Hackman: And they have supermarkets just like you and we do back here in the UK. Um, and so, yeah, so children go to school, um, and that, but that has to be paid for. Just like in the US as well, you don't have free healthcare like we do in the UK. They have, um, so they have to pay for their, um, medicine and medication as well.

[00:29:54] Karen Hackman: Yeah, there are some very poor people who struggle, and there are some very affluent people as well. Um, it's very Yeah, it's an eye-opener. It's an eye-opener. People are very happy and actually, Kenyans are very resourceful. And they, if you like to throw anything away, they will use it and find a purpose for it.

[00:30:15] Karen Hackman: Um, they are a very loving Christian, strong Christian. They have a strong faith, community, and country, and yeah, they are very kind people.

[00:30:26] Ralph Estep, Jr.: So I imagine being involved in religion with your husband creates even more financially interesting situations. I know I've got a lot of listeners who are pastors or wives of pastors, you know, what, what is different in that?

[00:30:41] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Is it that much different? Are there other stresses? I mean, you mentioned that sort of the recession was following you and that's tough. You know, how do you, how do you manage that?

[00:30:51] Karen Hackman: Yeah, we have. Um, so. So for us, we just put our trust in God because he's obviously called us into this ministry, and we know a plan Thank you.

[00:30:59] Karen Hackman: And so We just we just go with the flow, you know, we just God's opened these doors for us. So we know that's where we should be right now. As you say pastors all around the world, I believe people um come to them, uh in their need and earlier on in our marriage, I knew that um, You People would go to Wayne because he's very generous and he that's one of the reasons I love him and in Africa, It is no different and people would knock on the door and ask for some money for their child's education fees or for hospital fees and he would give them 250 and you know, he'd be very generous and then I would get along and say right and what's the but have you seen the bank statement recently?

[00:31:44] Karen Hackman: I'm going to do a food shop on Saturday and then it turned out that we had no money left no money left because Wayne had given it all away, but we found a way. You know, there is a, you know, there's beans and rice and that's okay. So he's very generous. He has become less generous with them, in the nicest possible way.

[00:32:02] Karen Hackman: You have to look after your family first, don't you? But yeah, he's still a bit more intentional with his money now and he's a bit more, you know, family first, but we do help our local people where we can. Although that's not always easy, we do our best.

[00:32:18] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Talk about that on my show all the time and that is in order to help others You've got to shore up your financial house first and that's one of the things I try to stress, and is that something you talk about with your couples as well?

[00:32:30] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Is it you know, you're never going to be able to bless others If you're not managing, I call it stewardship, you know If you're not stewarding the resources, and the truth is and I think you would agree with me everything I have Everything you have it's not ours It's given to us by God. So it's our responsibility to steward it.

[00:32:49] Ralph Estep, Jr.: And one of the things I say continuously on my show is that you are never going to bless others until you bless yourself and you learn how to steward those resources. Do you feel the same way?

[00:32:59] Karen Hackman: Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the reasons that we have on our spending plan is so many categories and sinking funds to make sure that we've got money when we need it to do those things that we need to do.

[00:33:11] Karen Hackman: I'm not talking about You Exotic holidays, luxury, you know, luxury times by the beach, just to make sure that we've got our house in order, that we can put food on the table. We can put fuel in the car. If it breaks down, we've got that backup emergency fund. Um, and then you can make sure.

[00:33:27] Karen Hackman: And in my intentional spending plan, it's got giving is the top line because you must make sure that you are giving. And even though sometimes that's hard, you have to acknowledge that that's what the word says and that's what God wants you to do. And you step out in faith, and you do it and everything will be okay and you know that.

[00:33:44] Ralph Estep, Jr.: That's been a difficult discussion. I did a show about two weeks ago on tithing. And I talked about, you know, tithing is not even the minimum. That's the minimum.

[00:33:51] Karen Hackman: Yeah.

[00:33:52] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Because the Lord says he loves a cheerful giver. When you approach this with couples who maybe they aren't going to church, maybe they say they're Christians and they, you know, it's not for me to say they're not Christians, but they don't even understand that concept of, “Whoa, wait a minute, you want me to pay God first?”

[00:34:07] Ralph Estep, Jr.: You know, how do you deal with that? Because I agree with you. I think that if you start there, the blessings follow. But how do you deal with that for somebody, husband and wife, who don't really have a concept of that? One of the things I find funny in my practice, I do a lot of tax work. People come in and get their taxes done.

[00:34:23] Ralph Estep, Jr.: And I'll say to them, hey, did you do any charitable giving us a Ralph? Oh, you're never going to believe this. I gave a ton to the church last year. And I say to them, well, how much did I say? 200 bucks. And I said, okay. And I don't mean to be judgmental, but I look at their tax turn. They made 200, 000. Yeah.

[00:34:40] Ralph Estep, Jr.: And I said, you gave 200 bucks and it's, it's not really my place. However, as I get older, I'm getting bolder. But how do you deal with that? With a couple that they don't really have that, you know, I want to say upbringing, or they weren't brought up in a way that you know, you pay God first and then what you have left, you know, you pay your first fruits.

[00:34:58] Ralph Estep, Jr.: They talk about it in the Bible. How do you deal with that? Karen.

[00:35:00] Karen Hackman: Yeah, and I think like you, we don't like to, to give advice and to tell them what to do, but just to open their eyes and to know, you know, in the Bible, it says at least 10 percent tax. And sometimes I just say, you know, sometimes I might even bring my husband in just to have like another kind of separate coffee time with them and just, just to, just to thrash around their ideas and just to talk about it.

[00:35:20] Karen Hackman: Um, because obviously more theologian than I am, he's being a pastor. And, um, and then I don't, so I just leave it with them. And then over the weeks, they say, okay, let's, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to, increase this giving now because they feel called and just giving them the time to talk about it, to pray about it, think about it.

[00:35:38] Karen Hackman: And, and I find most of the time they increase their giving.

[00:35:43] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Yeah, and I tell people if it starts at 1 percent start at 1 percent and then next month or the two months after that do 2 percent and grow into that and what you're going to find, and I'll tell you I found it my own life Is that it grows because God is with you?

[00:35:57] Ralph Estep, Jr.: He's with you the whole time and he makes a way I remember my wife and I were first married, and we were really struggling, you know and it was funny like a check would pop up, you know an insurance refund or something like this and I and I would Look at her and I'd say Wow. That's not something we were planning.

[00:36:13] Ralph Estep, Jr.: But the truth is if you plant those seeds of tithing and you get involved with the church, I think those things just come along with it. Well, Karen, I think we've had a great discussion today. How do people get in touch with you? What's the best way to get in touch with you?

[00:36:25] Karen Hackman: Oh, thanks Ralph. Well, you can email me at hello@moneyandmarriage.net.

[00:36:29] Karen Hackman: My website is moneyandmarriage.net. And I've got some freebies on there, which I would love to share with your listeners and your viewers. So just have a look out there and just see what you like and what you can do, what you can sign up for. And I'd love to hear from you. I'm also on Instagram.

[00:36:47] Karen Hackman: I'm sorry, Wayne, you're in the picture. I'm really sorry, Ralph. Do you want to come and say hello to Ralph while you're here then? Sorry, Ralph.

[00:36:54] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Wayne, how are you?

[00:36:56] Karen Hackman: Very good, man. How are you?

[00:36:57] Ralph Estep, Jr.: I'm very good. We're speaking all about good things with you.

[00:37:02] Karen Hackman: Yeah. Yeah. She's an amazing financial coach.

[00:37:05] Ralph Estep, Jr.: That's awesome.

[00:37:06] Karen Hackman: I'm really sorry.

[00:37:08] Ralph Estep, Jr.: It's okay. This is real life, right?

[00:37:11] Karen Hackman: It's real life,

[00:37:13] Ralph Estep, Jr.: But no, but no, listen, and I may, you know, I might leave this in because the truth is look, here's the deal, right? We've been talking about couples here for 30 minutes, right?

[00:37:21] Karen Hackman: Yeah,

[00:37:21] Ralph Estep, Jr.: But that's your partner.

[00:37:23] Karen Hackman: It is.

[00:37:24] Ralph Estep, Jr.: That’s your mate, right? That's your soulmate.

[00:37:26] Karen Hackman: Yeah, he is my soulmate.

[00:37:27] Ralph Estep, Jr.: I’m just saying, you know, and one of the things I thought was really cool What your husband said to you she's great at this

[00:37:33] Karen Hackman: Yeah.

[00:37:33] Ralph Estep, Jr.: You know one of the things and we'll get back to talking about where people find you but one of the things I think that your husband just brought out and it's so sad that I see this every day is support your spouse, encourage your spouse, be the cheerleader for your spouse.

[00:37:49] Ralph Estep, Jr.: You know, this is God puts you together for a purpose. You know, the Bible talks about you becoming one flesh, and a lot of people in today's culture where divorce is every day, you know, they just, they don't look at it that way, you know, oh yeah, we get along pretty well, but I have mine and he has yours, but it shows.

[00:38:04] Ralph Estep, Jr.: It's so awesome for me to, to what you said is about like, you know, we're doing this together. So anyway, that was cool. So we got to meet Wayne. Now Wayne is the theologian of the group. And so if people want to talk with you, maybe they can talk to Wayne about some theological things but go ahead back to what you were talking about.

[00:38:22] Ralph Estep, Jr.: And your website is beautiful by the way. It's very, it's very appealing. It's very engaging. And I'll put all of that in the show notes.

[00:38:28] Karen Hackman: Thank you so much. I appreciate you. People could also find me on LinkedIn, Karen Hackman, or on Instagram, moneyandmarriage2, and that's the number two. Thank you so much, Ralph.

[00:38:37] Karen Hackman: I appreciate you.

[00:38:39] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Oh, you're welcome. And thanks for joining me today.

[00:38:41] Karen Hackman: No, thank you so much. God bless you.

[00:38:43] Ralph Estep, Jr.: God bless you as well.

[00:38:44] Ralph Estep, Jr.: What a great interview told to wrap up. Remember that financial harmony in marriage is about more than just numbers. It's about communication. It's about respect. It's about those shared goals. You have to start by having an open, and honest conversation with your spouse about money. You have to set aside judgment and really listen to each other's perspective. Then you have to work together to create a financial plan that considers both your needs and goals. Well, thank you for tuning into today's episode of the aircraft show.

[00:39:15] Ralph Estep, Jr.: I truly hope you've gained some valuable insights to help you and your spouse become a financial dream team. And don't forget about tomorrow's show won't be discussing what are nine reasons I should still write checks. No, I'm not going back to the stone age. It's a topic that might surprise you and our increasingly digital world.

[00:39:35] Ralph Estep, Jr.: Now, maybe after listening to today's show, you're feeling a bit overwhelmed by all this information. I'm going to encourage you. Don't worry. I'm here to help you. I want you to schedule a point with me so we can create a financial, personalized financial plan for you, maybe for you and your spouse.

[00:39:51] Ralph Estep, Jr.: I'm going to help you put your finances in order. He can do that by going to ask Ralph podcast.com. Slash store. And I'm going to charge you a $150 consultation fee, but I'm going to work with you individually, or like I said, as a couple, on your personal finances. Maybe it's a business; you need help with how to grow your business.

[00:40:10] Ralph Estep, Jr.: But the goal is I'm going to help you achieve all your financial goals. So, I’m going to encourage you to schedule with me today. We'll create a plan, and I will definitely help you achieve your financial success. Remember this. My passion is to help you achieve financial success. I want you to live out your dreams.

[00:40:27] Ralph Estep, Jr.: I want you to grow in your faith and I know debt together. We can master your finances from a Christian perspective. So as I always end this show, I want you to stay financially savvy. And God bless you.